Thanks and Thoughts For "Scheme on Skis" :)
Hi everyone. Thank you for the quick and earnest responses. It is great to be involved with such great people. There are a lot of communities out there that laugh at newbies and give really bad responses to beginner-questions. The Gambit community is a great one to be in. Here I will try to provide a quick introduction of myself :) I am currently living in South Africa and I am 24. I have been developing software for about 7 years and it is what I love to do. I have been actively developing in the following technologies: o) C/C++ o) Ruby/Rails o) PHP o) C# / APS.NET I am currently busy working for a company doing a huge C# / ASP.NET project. However this is not really what I want to do. I have recently discovered Common Lisp and the ideas and mechanisms really opened my eyes. I then read a lot about CL and eventually wondered into Scheme. I started writing some simple pieces of code in CL and was surprised: I loved it. I am a bit of a performance freak so I started looking around at many different LISP implementations, trying to find one that is well-supported, has a great community, is fast, and can be used to write commercial or enterprise applications. This road eventually led to Gambit (of course :) ). So I found a love for CL and Scheme and I like Scheme just a bit more because it's very clean. So i started downloading and buying books on Scheme, including: o) the little schemer o) the seasoned schemer o) LiSP in Small Pieces (quite a heavy read for me :)) Ok, now I have been developing Rich Internet application for a while now and love writing web applications. Then I thought it would be great if I can write web applications using Scheme :) Most of my knowledge is self-taught because I love to read. There are no good CS courses here that cover Scheme / CL in great detail, so I am a bit green in this area. Ok, so that intro was a bit longer than expected :) Everything boils down to this basically: I love writing software in Scheme and would like to build big projects with the help of other, smarter individuals, learn a ton of new stuff and have fun in the process. I have been looking for an open source project to contribute to and I believe I have settled on Gambit. I want to move Scheme out of the academic light and into the "you can write serious business applications" light. So I am going to need a lot of help and input from the Gambit community :) (but I don't think that will be a problem). I might not have all the experience or expertise for such a project, but I make up for it with enthusiasm and love of programming in Scheme :) Ok so on to the scheme community's new web framework : "Scheme on Skis" (thanks Marc). I will be actively involved in this project and will be spending my time gathering ideas from all you smart people :) I am currently setting up a website and will keep everyone posted. I would really like this project to be a community effort, so I am always open and listening to new ideas, comments, criticism, etc. The goal is to build a stable web framework (using Gambit) that is blazingly fast, easy to use, and has good support for current web standards. I have elected myself not as the leader of this project, but simply an organizer. Any objections are welcome :) . Anyone that has a component or is working on a component related to web applications are welcome to contact me. I welcome the use of already-developed modules that can simply be used in the web framework. We also need to decide on branding for our Scheme on Skis, creating a slogan, logo, graphics etc. Any ideas are welcome. There is a ton of stuff to do before we get started, but the most difficult part of any project is to get started. So this is an official start for Scheme on Skis :) I will be heavily relying on Marc and other individuals with lots of experience and I would like to thank everyone in advance. Rouan. ___________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Answers - Got a question? Someone out there knows the answer. Try it now. http://uk.answers.yahoo.com/
from Simply Christian On 2 Nov 2007, at 08:28, Rouan van Dalen wrote:
So I found a love for CL and Scheme and I like Scheme just a bit more because it's very clean. So i started downloading and buying books on Scheme, including:
o) the little schemer o) the seasoned schemer o) LiSP in Small Pieces (quite a heavy read for me :))
Ok, now I have been developing Rich Internet application for a while now and love writing web applications. Then I thought it would be great if I can write web applications using Scheme :)
Most of my knowledge is self-taught because I love to read. There are no good CS courses here that cover Scheme / CL in great detail, so I am a bit green in this area.
Ok, so that intro was a bit longer than expected :)
That's fine, you're on the way to enlightenment :-) You should find http://ocw.mit.edu/OcwWeb/Electrical-Engineering-and-Computer-Science/ 6-001Spring-2005/CourseHome/index.htm meets your needs for online courseware. From the site description
This course features projects and supporting documentation. This course has virtually all of its course materials online. 6.001 is the first course in the core of departmental subjects which is required for all undergraduates in Electrical Engineering and Computer Science. It offers an online version of the textbook for the course, Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs, 2nd ed., by Abelson, Sussman, and Sussman.
Dr Nicholas Walton Skype: amateuracademic Myspace: http://www.myspace.com/amateuracademic Made for spirituality, we wallow in introspection. Made for joy, we settle for pleasure. Made for justice, we clamour for vengeance. Made for relationship, we insist on our own way. Made for beauty, we are satisfied with sentiment. But new creation has already begun. The sun has begun to rise. Tom Wright, The Bishop of Durham
On 11/2/07, Rouan van Dalen <rvdalen@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
Ok, now I have been developing Rich Internet application for a while now and love writing web applications. Then I thought it would be great if I can write web applications using Scheme :)
... Ok so on to the scheme community's new web framework : "Scheme on Skis"
(thanks Marc).
... Anyone that has a component or is working on a component related to web
applications are welcome to contact me. I welcome the use of already-developed modules that can simply be used in the web framework.
I am already in the process of developing such a framework in R5RS (+ SRFI-0) Scheme born out of my endless frustration with Ruby on Rails. I currrently have a DB access framework and page template processing code working, but I do not have CGI or FastCGI interface modules yet. The only truly non-portable part that I have in the framework so far is the MySQL interface code which relies entirely on Larceny's FFI. I also have to say that I don't expect to be able to write a truly portable FastCGI layer, either, but I do expect to be able to isolate the dependencies to a very small code module. I would port this whole thing to Gambit, but I don't have native executable build capability for Gambit on Windows (which is pretty much mandatory to use the Gambit FFI, IIRC). david rush -- Once you label me, you negate me - Soren Kierkegaard
On 11/2/07, David Rush <kumoyuki@gmail.com> wrote:
I am already in the process of developing such a framework in R5RS (+ SRFI-0) Scheme born out of my endless frustration with Ruby on Rails.
I should also have pointed out that some of the core choices relating to code re-use in Rails must necessarily look very different in RnRS Scheme, which generally does not support the Inheritance pattern of code reuse. The Delegation and Composition reuse patterns are much more in line with Scheme semantics (and are strictly more expressive according to a paper I vaguely recall from OOPSLA '94 or thereabouts). If you really have an attachment to Inheritance (as in Rails), I suspect that you will find CL more suited to your tastes as OOP was pretty much invented by those guys. david rush -- Once you label me, you negate me - Soren Kierkegaard
On 11/2/07, Christopher Diggins <cdiggins@gmail.com> wrote:
If you really have an attachment to Inheritance (as in Rails), I suspect that you will find CL more suited to your tastes as OOP was pretty much invented by those guys.
See Simula '67.
And they did it with only zeros :) But yes, there were others. I only said 'pretty much' :) david rush -- Once you label me, you negate me - Soren Kierkegaard
Anyone that has a component or is working on a component related to web applications are welcome to contact me. I welcome the use of already-developed modules that can simply be used in the web framework.
I am already in the process of developing such a framework in R5RS (+ SRFI-0) Scheme ...
Can you share it with us? - Christopher
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Rouan van Dalen wrote:
Ok so on to the scheme community's new web framework : "Scheme on Skis" (thanks Marc).
I have the impression that hop <http://hop.inria.fr/> can do a lot of what you want. How incompatible are Gambit and Bigloo? Is there any chance of porting Hop to Gambit? Marijn - -- Marijn Schouten (hkBst), Gentoo Lisp project <http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/lisp/>, #gentoo-lisp on FreeNode -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.7 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHKwvUp/VmCx0OL2wRArESAJ97JNp8CO692KkRID/JtFEdEwoAjgCdEl9y Wv/ePJ3m6QLQ0QNkVczsXTQ= =3hVW -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
I have the impression that hop <http://hop.inria.fr/> can do a lot of what you want.
Hop seems to have overlooked databases more or less, and is more directed at multimedia apps, but I think it would be a good place to draw inspiration. I don't think the broker model they used is neccessarily what one wants in a typical web framework.
How incompatible are Gambit and Bigloo? Is there any chance of porting Hop to Gambit?
IIUC Hop is not actually Bigloo compatible, it is a new langauge. Nonetheless, it would be smart to reuse some of the ideas (and code). - Christopher Diggins
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Christopher Diggins wrote:
IIUC Hop is not actually Bigloo compatible, it is a new langauge. Nonetheless, it would be smart to reuse some of the ideas (and code).
It is a Bigloo library and a web broker for use with this library AFAIU. - -- Marijn Schouten (hkBst), Gentoo Lisp project <http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/lisp/>, #gentoo-lisp on FreeNode -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.7 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHKxb5p/VmCx0OL2wRAihUAJwKv2ut5bWgr0+IAupJhBhPKnZYgQCfaUSx XkkFFga1/VG8i8TnnzA2LXc= =INyX -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
On 11/2/07, Marijn Schouten (hkBst) <hkBst@gentoo.org> wrote:
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Rouan van Dalen wrote:
Ok so on to the scheme community's new web framework : "Scheme on Skis" (thanks Marc).
I have the impression that hop <http://hop.inria.fr/> can do a lot of what you want.
How incompatible are Gambit and Bigloo? Is there any chance of porting Hop to Gambit?
At the MSLUG meeting organized during the OOPSLA 2007 I asked Manuel Serano that exact same question and the answer was : "Don't even think about it! There are alot of bigloo specific stuff in Hop" I find it hard to believe any Scheme code could be that hard to port to Gambit but that was his answer. On a personal note, I loved the Hop code I saw as it seemed (first impressions) to make web development really clean and mostly Scheme based. The one thing I didn't like about Hop is that instead of hooking a high-level API into the new emerging rich-application Javascript frameworks like ExtJS, it redoes all the job itself. I haven't looked at Hop's source code, but I'd guess the rich-application javascript side must be a *big* part of the framework and as a web developer I want to be able to use any kick-ass rich-application API I want. PS: Personally I *love* Marc's new Scheme on skis name but I think we should find some other nice and short name. Using the same blabla on blabla name as Rails is not a good to start showing how original Scheme is! Regards, Guillaume
On 11/2/07, Guillaume Cartier <gcartier@jazzscheme.org> wrote:
On 11/2/07, Marijn Schouten (hkBst) <hkBst@gentoo.org> wrote:
How incompatible are Gambit and Bigloo? Is there any chance of porting Hop to Gambit?
At the MSLUG meeting organized during the OOPSLA 2007 I asked Manuel Serano that exact same question and the answer was :
"Don't even think about it! There are alot of bigloo specific stuff in Hop"
I find it hard to believe any Scheme code could be that hard to port to Gambit but that was his answer.
I can attest to the likely truthfulness of the answer as well. I started programming in Scheme with Bigloo because it was fast and the C FFI was *really easy*. And the Bigloo system has a lot of nice extensions (both functional ones and DSLs), but the downside of that is that you have to discipline yourself not to use them if you want to write portable code. When I had to start porting my code between Bigloo, Larceny, Gambit, and Stalin in search of the best performance I found that untangling my Bigloo dependencies was harder than it looked. I can only imagine how dependent software developed by the Bigloo dev team might be, You could easily end up just writing a Bigloo->Gambit compiler :) david rush -- Once you label me, you negate me - Soren Kierkegaard
PS: Personally I *love* Marc's new Scheme on skis name but I think we should find some other nice and short name. Using the same blabla on blabla name as Rails is not a good to start showing how original Scheme is!
The acronym being "SOS", I wonder whether we want bad jokes like "SOS! They force me to write Scheme code!". Might it not be better to find something related to chess? "Web Mate", your last good move "Pawns", Practical Advanced Web Now in Scheme I reckon this would suit well a Gambit related naming convention... Adrien -- "I am not a Church numeral; I am a free variable!" (The Scheme Underground) For every complex problem, there is a solution that is simple, neat, and wrong.
Here's another scheme web thingie you might want to look at if you haven't already: http://magic.xmog.com On Nov 2, 2007 6:36 AM, Marijn Schouten (hkBst) <hkBst@gentoo.org> wrote:
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Rouan van Dalen wrote:
Ok so on to the scheme community's new web framework : "Scheme on Skis" (thanks Marc).
I have the impression that hop <http://hop.inria.fr/> can do a lot of what you want.
How incompatible are Gambit and Bigloo? Is there any chance of porting Hop to Gambit?
Marijn
- -- Marijn Schouten (hkBst), Gentoo Lisp project <http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/lisp/>, #gentoo-lisp on FreeNode -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.7 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org
iD8DBQFHKwvUp/VmCx0OL2wRArESAJ97JNp8CO692KkRID/JtFEdEwoAjgCdEl9y Wv/ePJ3m6QLQ0QNkVczsXTQ= =3hVW -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
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participants (8)
-
Adrien Pierard -
Christopher Diggins -
David Rush -
Dr Nicholas Walton -
Guillaume Cartier -
Marijn Schouten (hkBst) -
Rouan van Dalen -
|/|/ Bendick